“But KT, that’s really not what this is about. It’s not MyFootballClubFC where fans get to vote on who is coach every week. Believe me, the typical fan in England is no different — just look at some English messageboards. The idiocy quota is the same, and probably worse, in England. Having lived in both places, perhaps you could take my word on this one? If not — find me some evidence to the contrary!”

Football fans are, at their core, absolute morons. Regardless of the race, colour, creed, passport. location or team, my experience tells me that they are brain-dead knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, monosylabic imbeciles who struggle to see past the end of their beer bellies.

However, take them outside of the footballing arena (in every sense) and almost universally they become a different creature. Away from the mob rule mentality, away from the blinkered passions, most, not all, obviously, would be a decent addition to their club’s boardrooms.

Whether this means they should contemplate taking over is something else though. For every FCUM and Shalke, there is an Ebsfleet and a Notts County (forgive my English bias, it’s what I know best)

The ever-increasing distance between fan and club is one of the things that turned me off full-time, professional football. There is an expectation of blind loyalty to “the brand” regardless of any mismanagement that may be going on. As one drops down the leagues, the need for fan involvement becomes ever greater, be it in the form of stewarding, programme editing or groundsmanship. The line between employee, volunteer and partisan spectator becomes blurred. Whilst there is invariably a money man/men in the background, and their influence as holder of the purse strings is still huge, there is a degree of culpability and accountability to the wider fanbase that isn’t seen at the top end. Witness Portsmouth. Fans may not control the club, but they are integral to the ongoing survival of it in more ways than simply paying their gate money. The tuned-in owners recognise this. It is not about making money at the bottom end, and therefore the room if ego is minimalised. Fans are the life blood of a nonleague club far more than they are of a Premiership club, and in that sense, they always have been involved.

The football environment in most of these countries is or has been similar to the one in England years ago with regards to the governance of the game. Yes, times are difficult, but they are and have been in England too but still the trust movement managed to emerge.

It is similar in Italy. I went there almost three years ago to see what fan culture is like and if there were groups who wanted to be involved in the governance of their clubs. Back then it didn’t look promising. However, as Vanda pointed out, there are now several initiatives who want to have a say and promote good governance. It is early days but things are clearly changing.(…)

And that brings me to the question of whether groups in MLS are less educated than fans in Germany or Spain. From my experience the majority of fans in Germany and Spain are not well educated in ownership and governance of football clubs. However, in every country it is the minority of educated fans who really move things forward and get more people involved. But all of them have started somewhere and just because the majority of fans in MLS don’t know about fan ownership doesn’t mean it is not possible.

All of the groups I work with have been in similar, often rather depressing environments, where the majority of fans is not interested in involvement. But these minorities with a vision are all doing an incredible job in promoting what’s actually possible and what it could mean to have a say in the running of their clubs. The trust movement is growing across Europe, with supporters trusts and supporter-owned clubs in 14 countries.

Before I leave, I just wanted to point out that the supporter directors I know are happy to make decisions. They all bring something to the table which is beneficial to the club. I don’t know of one example where the fan-director is lost, not knowing what to do on the board. It’s a question about the governance of the club, job profiles, how well they are supported, etc. If it’s not your cup of tea, KT, it might be Tom’s or somebody else’s. And believe me there are many good people around. We should rather focus on getting them together and distribute knowledge rather than pointing the bad guys out.

From what I’ve learned I believe that supporter ownership is a model which could work in almost every country, but not at every club! Yes, there are many cultural differences that should be taken into account and there is always a lot of educational work needed, which can be incredibly exhausting. But in the end it is very much down to the people you get involved. There are many groups in Europe happy to help with regards campaigning, increasing membership etc and there is Supporters Direct who are supporting the groups and putting them in touch with them. It’s never going to be easy but not impossible.

You have to ask yourself what the value of your club is. I believe it’s not just the ground and the team but the fans and its value to its community by its existence (local pride) and that’s why fans should be involved. I have to go but will post some example of supporters trusts and supporter directors later this week.

Still, maybe MLS isn’t ready for a fan-owned team and the greater burden of responsibility that would bring, and in any case, that’s not exactly viable right now financially, even if we did decide it were desirable. But would a supporter representative on each MLS club’s board really bring the whole edifice crumbling down? Supporters pooling together to put money into the club on a non-profit basis and having a democratic election to find a responsible representative is a sure way to encourage fans to be more seriously involved and to increase fan-club engagement. As you said, MLS needs to listen to its fans more, and this is one way of doing it.

Idiots on messageboards don’t generally even get involved in the leadership of supporter trusts in practice (or even in the more successful and respectable supporters’ groups in MLS). It’s a long, hard slog that takes a lot of time and serious study of the issues involved in governing clubs. Dig through all the literature on the SD site about setting up trusts and see how they are advising fans to do it — I believe there are MLS fans capable of taking this up too. And anyone who took on a venture based roughly on this model (which obviously would need adaptation for the U.S.) would quickly see that it’s not about firing coaches or letting fans run wild.

And I do.

They’re footballing nations. We, sadly, are not there yet. And nor are our fans.

Not that there aren’t morons in other countries. There are.

I just think MLS fans in charge of running a club would be firing six coaches a year.

I really and truly don’t think the supporters of clubs in England, Spain or Germany are any more educated or able to be involved in governance of a club than fans of MLS clubs. Indeed, at the time the supporters’ trust movement was launched in the 1990s, English football fans were still best-known for racism, hooliganism and the disasters of the 1980s. They did not have a tradition of being involved in running clubs at all. They were subservient and treated that way in the 1970s and 1980s: one reason they were caged-in and hooliganism did become particularly virulent, I believe (treat people like animals…etc).

The Spanish and German cases are as you say, based on a long tradition of member-run sports clubs — but I think it’s fascinating that it was not the case in England, and it’s much more similar to here in terms of the idea of supporter-ownership being grafted on later — a hundred years after the founding of clubs in most cases. In England, the trust movement has grown fast as supporters realised that by taking a responsible share of the club, they could make the entire club more responsible — including the culture of support. Like with most things, giving people a democratic share of something makes them more willing to protect it and prevent abuses, whether by owners or fellow fans.

As for MLS fans, as a proportion of the fanbase, I’ve been delighted to find American fans are more open to activism and engagement with their clubs than I found amongst English fans two decades ago. The youth of the league and its fanbase is in itself an opportunity to get it right from (near) the beginning.

Still, it’s a fascinating topic and I do genuinely want to raise the question of whether it’s right for MLS rather than saying it is (that’s my opinion from my experience here in Chicago, but it may not be as applicable elsewhere). I hope to foster a longer debate on this going forward.