Away Supporters Restricted in MLS
It was their second home game, but the first time there existed in the stadium that entity which really makes being at home meaningful: away support in numbers.
It was May 2007, and Toronto FC welcomed over 200 Chicago Fire fans who had made the 700+ mile journey north-east.
It was a hot day in the sun, but the atmosphere crackled as the Fire fans burst into song. The huddled ranks of Toronto fans responded, and when the Canadians scored their first goal of any kind, the stadium exploded. Seat cushions handed out as a pre-game freebie went flying through the air.
Toronto won the game, but apart from an awkward few minutes in the parking lot afterwards, the atmosphere between the fans seemed to promise a respectful rivalry in the making. Fans of both teams drank together after the game. All said it had been a hell of a lot of fun, home and away.
Later in the season, the Toronto fans came down to Chicago in similar numbers, and it seemed Toyota Park was just a little louder than usual that day. A buzz filled the stadium not present when Columbus brings a dozen fans or New England twenty. Any fan worldwide knows the benefit of a healthy rivalry in the stadium, and it’s not foreign to sport in America either, as a college football fan will tell you.
This budding rivalry in MLS could have doubled in intensity this season to something special. Section 8 Chicago, the Chicago Fire Independent Supporters’ Association, requested 500 tickets at BMO Field for the sole game in Toronto this season. Given Toronto are taking 2,000 to Columbus for the opener, they’d surely have matched that 500 themselves in Chicago.
But it won’t happen. In fact, Chicago will take only around 100 to Toronto, and Toronto should be restricted to the same number in Chicago. An opportunity to build atmospheric games and rivalries that MLS badly needs will be lost.
Why? Because of the short-sighted nature of one front office and a notable lack of interest in the issue of away support emanating from MLS headquarters. Section 8 Chicago have more-or-less been told they’re lucky to be getting even 100 tickets this season for Toronto, even though the request has been standing for some time.
And despite being pressed tirelessly by the Chairman of S8C, Ben Burton, MLS headquarters seems to see the issue as far less pressing than arranging David Beckham’s next shoe-shine (MLS headquarters did not respond to a request from me on the issue made several weeks ago).
The paradox is MLS will use supporters’ groupings such as Section 8 and Toronto FC’s Red Patch Boys and U-Sector to market the league. They’ll post photos on their websites of the dynamic support, they’ll speak of the passion shown by the hundreds of TFC or Chicago fans heading to Columbus, they’ll pose for photos with the Sons of Ben when they announce Philadelphia’s expansion. They’ll say it’s what marks soccer out from other professional sports here.
And then they’ll do little to promote this by supporting those who wish to travel in numbers, in terms of organisation and security, surely a growing issue.
Ben Burton, S8C Chairman, told Pitch Invasion of his frustration and concerns it could eventually lead to safety problems if away support is not properly organised as the league grows:
I’ve been in discussion with the front offices of different teams and the league about this issue for over a year because my organization has been concerned with the lack of direction coming out of the league offices for quite some time. While there has been some movement on the part of MLS over the past year, we’re really concerned that it will take a serious security issue before MLS really decides to speed up their glacial pace.
With the league growing into more cities and smaller stadiums, the percentage of away support is going to grow. By stifling it, we’ll run into much bigger problems later. MLS is adding Philadelphia, a city close to three or four other MLS cities. How is that going to work if away support is limited to 100, even 200 people? It’s silly. Supporters and fans will find their way into stadiums through other means and end up sitting in places that cause problems, problems I’m working to avoid.
That said, I haven’t even be able to get the interest of supporters’ groups around the league to unite for the cause.
The league needs to listen to supporters and institute some kind of policy about away support. Equally, other supporters’ groups also need to pressure their own front offices and MLS for reciprocal away support accommodation. It’s an issue that cries out for collective supporter action.
What should be done?
Leaving it up to individual teams to decide entirely on their allocations makes little sense. Of course Columbus will offer up their whole south end to whoever wants to take it, but those teams closer to filling their stadiums regularly are much more likely to restrict away support as far as they can get away with, as we’re seeing with Toronto.
In other countries, such as England, a certain proportion of the stadium is guaranteed for away support in all competitions: in the Premier League and Football League, it’s 3,000 or 10% of the stadium, whichever is lower. It’s true that there would be little point reserving large numbers of seats for Kansas City fans in Los Angeles, for example — the distances and culture are different from Europe — but a sensible solution to deal with organised groups should be properly explored.
As it stands, if established supporters’ groups with a track record of away support are not given 1% of the stadium even when they’ve requested five times that and taken over twice that the previous season, something is awry.
The broader concern is that this speaks to MLS continual ambiguous relationship to the culture of supporters’ groups. Broadcasters turn the mics and cameras on them, yet their very presence is being restricted where it could do most for the atmosphere at MLS games.
Update: 48 hours on from this post’s publication, there has been massive interest on the general issue of figuring out a way forward on the away support issue, and I’d particularly like to thank those Toronto fans who have expressed their dismay at their front office’s decision. Building on this kind of collaboration in the coming weeks will be critical, and behind the scenes, supporters’ groups are working on figuring out a proposal for MLS. We will have a post with more details on this soon.
The one difficult issue that has caused conflict so far regards the possibility — and I should stress that as far as I know, nothing has been decided — that Chicago might limit Toronto’s allocation as far as Toronto limits Chicago. But I would say again the situation is fluid and let’s work on finding a solution that would mean it wouldn’t even need to be considered and indeed (with a league-wide mandate) would make it impossible in the future. It should certainly be an absolute last resort.
Thanks to everyone who has offered comments and thoughts on how to proceed, please check back in the next day or two for a further and more detailed discussion on the way forward.
About the Author
Tom Dunmore is the founder and editor of Pitch Invasion. Follow him @pitchinvasion on Twitter.
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As a TFC fan, I hope this issue can be resolved correctly. We should be wanting as many people as possible to experience TFC futbol. This is not only short-sighted on the part of TFC and MLS, but as tourism gains importance in local economies, it is short sighted on the part of the City of Toronto.
Great Post Tom
This is definitely an issue. MLS does not seem to grasp how seriously the fan groups want an authentic soccer experiene here in North America. It’s not about being Euro-centric. It’s about having a good time. Soccer, like all professional sports, is supposed to be entertaining. For long time soccer fans, part of the entertainment value is the verbal jousting between home and away fans (anything more than verbal is stupid but that’s another story).
How hard would it be for MLS to hire someone to be responsible for “Supporter Relations”. The position could have a wide range of responsibilities but 1 key responsibility would be to ensure that supporters groups don’t have the problems Sec8 fans have trying to get tickets to come up to support their team. As a TFC supporter and someone who plans to travel a bit this summer to support my team, I would appreciate the same level of support from the league. It would show that they appreciate the efforts of the fans who support the league.
there is a part of me that believes that MLS head office thinks that travelling support = hooligans.
Great Article, and I really hope Toronto’s office opens up more seats for visitors. Having said that…. There just aren’t as many available seats in Toronto as there are in some other cities. We’re bringing over 2000 people to Crew Stadium for the season opener, and there will probably still be many empty seats. Can Toronto’s Front Office be blames for trying to sell out their own stadium? I think not. I may be wrong, but didn’t Toronto have the most sell-out home games in the league last year?
The best solution (IMO) is for a block of 500 seats to be left open that can be sold on game day if there isn’t a large visitor presence. Not only would it help visitors, but game-day-decision fans wouldn’t have to resort to scalpers.
cheers,
Mike “Parkdale” RPB
Parkdale, thanks for the comment and we can certainly appreciate Toronto are in a different position to many in the league. But let’s remember Manchester United and Arsenal sell-out every game too in England, but still leave room for thousands of away supporters. It adds to the atmosphere and it’s good for the game. All I’m saying is MLS needs to work with teams and supporters’ groups to find a fair solution.
Also remember that not every team is as needy for fans as Columbus. One doubts Chicago will be offering Toronto fans more seats at Toyota Park than Toronto are offering Chicago at BMO Field as a matter of reciprocity — so this directly impacts on TFC fans who want to travel, too. With other teams like Philly joining who also should have large away support and a small stadium, we need to think big picture.
Thanks to all the TFC fans here and elsewhere for their support on this issue so far, I’d like to add.
Tom, we are in total agreement that there should be an league wide decision made about reserving seats. However, I don’t think a comparison can be made to how it’s done in Europe. Old Trafford can hold over 70,000 people and Emirates Stadium can hold 60,000. Plus London and Manchester are only 185 miles apart, so it’s really hard to compare the away support seen in Europe with what we’re hoping to see in the MLS. Maybe one day….?
I see positive changes for the future. Certainly with San Jose (and Seattle down the road) there’s a great opportunity for a West Coast Tour. Adding Philly to the league makes for a great Eastern Tour. The fact that MLS fans are willing to travel is going to become very apparent over the next few months, and I hope that the MLS honchos take notice and adjust accordingly.
With 25% of all ML season tickets sold belonging to Toronto FC (16,000) there may be need to put in additional seating for away fans supporters groups that can bring large number.
Chicago, DC anfd Revs all had goos turn outs at BMO last year.
Restricting TFC fans from coming to chicago, may be harder then it sounds. several fans bought a ticket for cash at the ticket office for last years game, then walked over to the TFC section.
Parkdale, all good points.
Still, I think you can make the comparison to Europe in the sense there should be some league-wide mandate, as we both agree on. Of course the context and numbers are different, but the 3,000 seats or 10% of the stadium rule (whichever is lower) goes throughout the Premier and Football Leagues. My point to bring up Old Trafford or the Emirates is that even sold-out stadiums follow that rule, and you could go down to more comparably-sized places like Fratton Park or the old Dell when they’ve been selling out in the Premier League, that still had to follow that directive.
Certainly we don’t need 10% or 3,000 seats at BMO Field reserved right now for all MLS clubs, as you’re right the distances are much greater and travelling support smaller. It needs to be discussed. But right now the Fire are being offered less than 1%. Maybe in MLS it’s 3% or 500 seats, whichever is lower, or something. Whatever it is, it shouldn’t be restricting away support to a pittance.
And to again agree with you, we should plan ahead for positive changes, as if we don’t get something in place before restricting away travel becomes a precedent, it’ll be all the harder later.
Is there any professional sport in North America that has a traveling fan policy? I am aware of none. Admittedly I am not familiar with the traveling support situation in Mexican Soccer. Keep in mind the owners of Toronto FC own other professional sports franchises in leagues where a traveling fan policy is not an issue. There is not a away fans section for the Raptors, Blue Jays or Maple Leafs that I am aware of. They are running their business with a business model that they are familiar with. On the Chicago side of the equation Wrigley Field or Soldier Field two iconic sports venues are not designed to accommodate away supporters sections. The concept of traveling support is not a familiar one for professional sports here.
The Philadelphia expansion will bring some interesting situations for the MLS to address. At Philadelphia Eagles games away fans have reason to fear for their lives and that is not an exaggeration. I have met traveling fans that have been assaulted at Eagles games. Hooliganism already exists in the Philadelphia sports market. The MLS needs to be cautious as they proceed in a fanatical sports market that can border on the insane.
Parkdale,
San Jose and Seattle may be “down the road” but its a long road, about 840 miles, which is longer than the trip between NY and Chicago, so I don’t think there will be many ‘road trips’ between the cities. There might be more of a chance if Portland and/or Vancouver were added to the league.
While travel is not as widespread now (especially for teams outside the Northeast Corridor), it will become so with addition of new teams. A team in St. Louis means an extra trip for Chicago and Kansas City. A team in Montreal means an extra trip for TFC, New England, and New York, etc. A second team in NYC doubles that.
I think a very common-sense solution here is to reserve at minimum 1-2% of seats for away support, moving up to 5%, then 10% as demand warrants. Should these seats not be claimed by gameday (Say, byt 24 hours before kickoff, then they go on sale to the general public at a reduced price. This encourages fans for game where the atmosphere will be heated (NY-Philly, Toronto-Chicago, Galaxy-San Jose, Houston-Dallas, etc.) to buy their tickets early. For games where traveling support may not be an issue (KC-LA, Dallas-New England, etc.) the cheaper tickets sold at the last minute can create an incentive for new fans to check out the team. The Milwaukee Brewers have done this well with their “Uecker Seats” which are partially obstructed view, but go on sale an hour before game time for $1.
San Jose solved this problem by selling the usual section LA fans buy then placing them in a much larger section in front of home fans…end result because of LA fans standing–though only a couple were asked to sit down–was SJPD coming in, clubbing LA fans and hauling them off. Away fan ticketing is hardly a new problem and needs to be resolved. Props for bringing this up.
This problem will only grow as well as people who have followed a team for years move. I was a season ticket holder in LA for 10 seasons before heading East. I now see LA when they play in Chicago or Columbus. I’m sure there are others who have also moved but would still like to watch matches with fans of their team. I can do it no problem with my college football team (I just call the ticket office) why can’t I do it for my MLS team? Another plan that might be worth looking at is how the AFL (Aussie Rules) does this. The have membership groups and when your team is playing in your town (about as geographically distant has the US) you are given the chance to buy tickets with other fans of your team…even if you’re the visiting team. It still amazes me how MLS treats their most loyal and biggest spending fans.
Honestly, I can’t say I’m surprised by this one-dimensional relationship. Many of these MLS owners are not really fans and have little respect for supporters groups or the atmosphere that they bring. They do care about the season tickets they sell to these groups, but that’s it.
Here in Los Angeles, the Chivas USA FO has a very ambigious relationship with the Legion Kalifas. On one hand, they are happy to sell discounted season seats to them, but are very wary of supporting any other Chivas USA supporters groups. Rival supporter groups are non-factor, as a result. They would rather sell 5 corporate season tickets (that may or may not be used) than to sell 40 single game-only tickets in the same section. We are fans that want to make noise and make the game more than a game.
In the meantime, less than 10k some to the Home Depot Center to watch Chivas USA play and everyone scratches their heads.
It really is all about selling tickets. MLS stadiums can filled to capacity or close to it, if these owners were a little more patient with their fans, open to rival fans, and owners were more soccer -savvy.
@Parkdale: you make some good points, but keep missing the key one from the article for me: Section 8 requested those 500 seats AGES ago. So the issue of blocking off seats and not selling them seems like a moot point.
Away support is different in North America a bit, but someone mentioned Wrigley and Soldier Field, while there is no ‘official’ supporters section, they normally sell group tickets to lump as many of them together as possible. and I don’t believe Wrigley even lets fans wearing the other teams hat into the bleachers anymore unless they are in a group ticket situation because there are near constant fights in the stands as it is and especially after what happened in Milwaukee last year as well. Soldier Field is the same thing, they like to keep them together so they can move them through the tunnel to the Roosevelt bridge as quickly as possible as, once again, there are near constant fights there as it is anyways.
Also the mileage, 700 miles is only a 6-7 hour drive. In Champions League you see THOUSANDS of people traveling from England to Greece or Turkey all the time or Spain to Vladivostok in UEFA Cup play (which is over 5000 miles). Granted, soccer is the most popular sport there and many conutries are a little looser on off time from work, but considering MLS is mostly weekend games a 6 hour drive isn’t all that bad and most teams in MLS have at least 3 teams in that 6-8 hour drive window.
Ultimately, I think MLS needs to stop worrying about Beckham as Tom said and put a little effort into this. Even though I didn’t like the result of that first game, the atmosphere in the stands really came through on TV hearing one group of fans shouting down the other back and forth. For me, it was the best advertisement for the league. Even better than the LA vs. RBNY match, which was louder than normal but it was mostly limited to cheers for when Beckham touched the ball and RBNY goals. Not as electric as it could have been. (of course it doesn’t help that RBNY and LA in all honesty aren’t exactly known for having rowdy/vocal supporters group and given their attendance one could make the argument that RBNY doesn’t have enough fans for a true supporters group as it is)
CD – regarding a tradition of away fan sections for pro sports, I don’t know of any, but remember that college football is essential pro and there is a very established tradition of away fans there. There is no overall set percentage, but usually two teams’ schools arrange the number of seats when the schedule contract is made out. It’s frequently the same percentage of each stadium. Unclaimed tickets are returned about one or two weeks before the game and sold to home fans.
papa bear – “700 miles is only a 6-7 hour drive”
really? ! ! ! hope you wear your seatbelt!
Tom – my small contribution:
http://gramsciskingdom.blogspot.com/2008/03/tfc-boot-to-head-time.html
TFC: grow up.
I think this story brings a good point. Away fans could bring in alot of revenue and marketing for a team, especially if they are close by such as in DC-Philly-NY-NE region or any of the other regions people listed. It is strange that MLS is so callous with supporters groups because they are among the most loyal team fans. Teams like Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Columbus, and Chivas USA could also see a big rise in attendance if they were more soccer-savvy, and then soccer will be closer to becoming an established sport in this country.
Rob, College Football is not a professional sport and it is not run by business entities for the purpose of maximizing shareholders revenue. The primary revenue generator for large college football programs is not ticket sales. The insane sums of money are generated by “donations”. Season ticket holders are granted the right to buy season tickets by making “donations” to their athletic departments. Allocation of away tickets is granted to the highest level donors based on a priority list system. For in conference games a corresponding ticket allocation system is mutually beneficial. For out of conference games a contract is written and a ticket allocation can be agreed to as you stated. There is no universal away ticket policy and the policies differ between schools.
I fail to see the financial benefits to Toronto FC at this point of allocating away fan tickets in bulk and potentially losing revenue. If Toronto FC saw a bigger return on the attendance of away fans I am sure they would make some more effort to accommodate them. The precedent just isn’t there yet in North America but hopefully the MLS can be forwarding thinking and come up with an amiable solution.
It is a bit silly to go on about regional rivalries and then make it so that regional rival fans can’t get into games. “Wow Phili is close to DC, Hey United fans come on down for a game and hang out in the parking lot” just doesn’t sound like a great advertisement.
Rob,
Donation $ reference linkbelow. Donate at least $1000 for the right to buy each season ticket and sweat your a** off. In the SEC this is the standard setup with different donation levels.
http://www.gatorzone.com/tickets/sports/football/brochure.pdf
700 miles in 7 hours = 100 miles per hour. And in reality, it’s a 12-13 hour drive from Seattle to the Bay Area (speaking from experience). Seattle could really use a closer city for away games come 2009.
I don’t think the Toronto example is a great one simply because they’re the only team in MLS consistently selling out their stadium. As CD said, what’s their incentive?
Also, IMO most MLS teams need to get better relations with their own supporter groups before worrying about those of visiting teams.
Looking at this interesting issue from an outsider, I think it would be folly to start saying that there should be a standard percentage allocation introuduced that is given over to away fans in MLS (like there is in Europe) because, at most games, the away fans wouldn’t take up that allocation. You can’t compare the Premier League in England to the MLS for a whole host of reasons so I’m not sure it’s a good example to use. Surely each game in the MLS needs to be looked at individually in terms of the demand for tickets from the away fans with more given, as long as there is room, depending on how many away fans need to travel. This may mean matches take longer to plan for some clubs, but it it were to mean certain games could generate a better atmosphere then that has to be good for the game in America?
The obvious answer is for the fans to be consulted at the beginning of each season and each front office to submit a request for an allocation for each away fixture up to a maximum % of total available seating.
If done this way, it would quickly level out to accurate and honest estimates of travelling support as the front offices would have to consult with each other constantly.
This is what kills me about MLS fans. They complain that the league sticks its fingers in too many things, then when the league stays out of the fray and tries to let the teams decide issues like this, the fans complain that the league doesn’t care.
This should be a team issue, not a league issue. I don’t want the people in New York telling DCU how many away tickets to give out or where to put them or anything like that. If this league wants to continue to grow, they need to empower the front offices to do their own business, something which has been happening. And the fans need to stop blaming “the league” for everything that goes wrong.
It sucks that some supporter ticket issues are going to be limited, but blame the front offices, not the league.
Opposing support only adds to the rivalry and intensity at the games. 10% of the seating should be allocated to visitor fans.
I don’t see the problem.
This is an issue that has never needed to be addressed before, but now that it has become apparent, I’m confident that it will.
Garber will mandate that each team must allot x% of it’s seats in an area deemed to be an ‘away supporters section’ and make them available for purchase until such a time whereby, should they remain unpurchased, they will be reclaimed by the club for general sale.
Solved.
Then, when the next issue rears (away support mingling with home support) I’m sure we’ll see fencing and increased security added to the mix.
Whatever, I’m not worried.
Tobor, the problem is that MLS will only address it if we supporters push them to do so. So far they have responded with glacial slowness and seem distinctly uninterested when contacted about this. It also needs to be worked out exactly what x% is. I’d love to have your confidence that Garber will wave his wand any day off his own back and solve this, but that seems a bit unlikely to me.
Here is just my one sided take on the matter, in relation to the situation in Toronto.
I live and work in Toronto. I have been a fan since day one, and have tried to get seasons tickets last year, but i wasn’t quick enough to pull the trigger. As a result i have been on the GOLD waiting list since last year, I also tried to buy a “half season” package but by the time my slot to buy them came up, it was already sold out! I’m still on the waiting list for seasons tickets this year*argh*, it’s frustrating because i love my TFC so much! Anyways, what i wanted to say is that now i will be stuck buying single game tickets like a week or so in advance(because TFC front office doesn’t release them earlier!) So in essence i will be paying more then the 16,000 seasons ticket holders have paid for their tickets, which is fine by me, because i love my TFC..I am also travelling down to Columbus, and will be going to watch them in Chicago and New York. Its so hard to get tickets for TFC home games that i say screw the away fans for wanting 500 tickets in Toronto, I want to get my tickets FIRST!! Home support comes first, its not my problem that almost all the other teams in the MLS can’t fill their OWN stadiums!! If i can walk up and buy 2000 tickets in Columbus, theirs a reason for that!! its because NO ONE GOES TO THE GAMES THERE!!!!
This is only my opinion for TORONTO ONLY!! Toronto is a special case in the MLS.
sorry for venting…
The problem is, Alex, you’ll find it very hard to get a ticket to Chicago when you’re reciprocally restricted to around 100 tickets…I know it’s not easy and Toronto is a rare situation with the demand there, but we need to think bigger picture to solve this as the league expands and more teams move to small stadiums (Philly, NY/NJ in the coming years, probably St Louis too).
“So far they have responded with glacial slowness and seem distinctly uninterested when contacted about this”
How long have efforts been made to engage the league about this ?
In my mind it’s a recent phenomena, and while it would be nice to have it acknowledged by the league – and some promise made that it will be addressed – I don’t think that the appearance of inaction means that this is the actual case.
It depends what you mean by recent, but we’re not talking a few weeks or months here. I don’t see how we can conclude there isn’t inaction without some actual evidence of action — otherwise we’d be sitting around forever. Where is the harm in organising to get them to take notice? Why sit around and wait for further problems to arise?
We can all agree it is an unfortunate situation with the lack of tickets available for Chicago supporters. Someone made a business decision that sours the taste of all supporters and can hurt the atmosphere of a football match.
My main concern is that there seems to be calling for a tit for tat retaliation against TFC fans who have absolutely nothing to do with the situation. If you want to hurt the FO, then don’t buy the away tickets.
We know the league has turned a blind eye to this type of situation because they don’t have anything in place that the clubs have to adhere to.
The one thing you should never do, which people have suggested, is to sell any ticket reserved for away supporters that is left over on game day to walk up home fans. You are asking for trouble by mixing home and away supporters in one section.
PTFC, it’s a tough call for Chicago’s FO and it would certainly be unfortunate for TFC fans. My hope is they will pressure their own FO to treat away supporters as fairly as they hope to be treated themselves away. They are very well organised, have huge numbers and the ear of the local press, so they could really make a big impact on this if they wanted. Not that they have to, but they could play a positive role. It’s eight months until Chicago plays at BMO Field. Even a resolution for 2009 might be enough to forestall a tit-for-tat response by the Chicago FO.
But you have to ask why the Chicago FO would give an advantage to a visiting team (hundreds more away supporters) denied to them by their opposing FO in Toronto? There are two crucial games to be played on the field, giving one team an advantage in support seems unfair. There’s something of a principle at stake, it seems to me.
It’s quite simple, if Toronto and other teams limit the away allocation for some teams, I and other supporters will simply just buy “home tickets” off of ebay or off of craigslist. I really do not care if the home supporters give me grief, i will do anything to see my team the fire play away from home, even if they are sold out.
This is an interesting issue though it is one that really isn’t felt league-wide (yet). If anything, it’s a good dispute for the league to resolve. It means that more people care and are willing to travel to see their teams play.
I agree with Tom that supporters need to press the league office to render a decision on this matter. As a Red Bull New York fan, I feel I can be pretty neutral on this issue since sell outs for games in Giants Stadium are not an issue.
I think organized away support is necessary for the atmosphere at individual games as well as the advancement of the league. One of the major deficiencies of MLS is that people argue that regular season games don’t feel like they’re very important, therefore, casual supporters are turned off until the playoffs begin. That could change with rambunctious away support because the atmosphere created by the crowd would give the games a “larger than life” feel and would, in turn, push the players to perform at a higher level. People will perhaps begin to look at the games in a little different manner once they see that even for a relatively meaningless season opener, a team like TFC is willing to travel 2,000 fans to the game.
That said, not every team is going to draw big away support. Still, the league would do right to set a certain and reasonable amount of seats aside in each stadium for away support. It can be done on a team-by-team basis, using average attendance and size of the Stadium as factors. If the seats aren’t sold, then you release them to the general public an hour or 2 before the game.
For example, BMO Field seats about 20,000, and Toronto sells it out by the time the game starts. There’s no reason, however, that 400-500 seats can’t be set aside for away support. If there are tickets remaining, reward the devoted home fans who stood patiently and waited to watch their favorite team play.
What?
“The one thing you should never do, which people have suggested, is to sell any ticket reserved for away supporters that is left over on game day to walk up home fans. You are asking for trouble by mixing home and away supporters in one section.”
I have been attending sporting events for 30 years in this country and nearly everyone of those events had intermingled groups of supporters (one of which was TFC vs the Fire in Chicago that had zero problems). Certain members of fan bases do not know how to behave and I would categorize them as a criminal element that should not be in attendance anyway. Fans of opposing teams intermingle at nearly every sporting event in this country without incident. If a fan crosses the line of legal behavior they should be prosecuted to the full extend of the law. Allowing fans supporting different teams to mix does not cause problems but making excuses for improper behavior does.
Tom Dunmore:
“But you have to ask why the Chicago FO would give an advantage to a visiting team (hundreds more away supporters) denied to them by their opposing FO in Toronto? There are two crucial games to be played on the field, giving one team an advantage in support seems unfair. There’s something of a principle at stake, it seems to me.”
$
If it is not going to be a sellout through home fans, they do still want to sell tickets, right?
There is not benefit for TFC to block off sections for away supporters
(where there are sellouts, and plenty of atmospher created by the home side)
Chicago has to weight their possible benefits:
Less atmosphere, less dollars (if not a sellout), but arguably more homefield advantage.
vs
More atmosphere (TFC fans), more dollars ($$$), and arguably less homefield advantage.
Hmm, tough call there. /sarcasm
The flipside to the argument of Chicago restricting is that the increased atmosphere from the TFC fans would encourage the home fans, get them more into the game, get more home fans buying more tickets, and increasing the fanbase long term. Eventually Chicago would have the same “problem” of selling out their stadium with home team fans.
Which is how it should be. It is their HOME-FIELD advantage, just like TFC’s now.
Mikebsiu:
“It’s quite simple, if Toronto and other teams limit the away allocation for some teams, I and other supporters will simply just buy “home tickets” off of ebay or off of craigslist. I really do not care if the home supporters give me grief, i will do anything to see my team the fire play away from home, even if they are sold out.”
Exactly. That’s how it is in the US/Canada. No problem with that.
And half of the time the fans supporting the away team want good seats, or don’t want to sit in a large, loud group anyways.
*I am not a TFC nor Chicago fan.
The ONLY issue I see is if safey becomes a factor.
Tom – in reply to your last response to me – If it hasn’t been as long as a couple of months then I wouldn’t think there’s evidence of inaction (appearance, maybe, but i think at Board level issues like this would take some time to be met upon and resolved).
That said, you’re right about supporters having to bring it to the attention of the league, and I applaud those who have done this, for this is what will bring about the desired result.
Oh, My compromise:
Maybe if the teams weren’t selling out their own stadiums, I’d be a fan of instituting a temporary possible seating section for away fans, until home ticket demand is higher. Maybe once there are so many (%) season ticket sales, or total sales (including per-game tickets), then those seats are released to the home fans).
(ie Columbus has a designated 500 seats that they sell every year after the rest)
That way, they still sell season tickets, and then game tickets, like normal, and when they break a certain barrier, they can release those tickets to home fans for sale in advance (but not for season tickets), instead of going towards away fans.
TFC would reach that barrier immediately (capping season ticket sales), and thus would be allowed to sell those 500 tickets for home fans.
That way, if away groups get organized before the season begins, they’d still have a chance to organize a road trip, but the front offices can still go about selling their tickets.
Away fans who really want to do a trip are forced to get organized almost immediately as the schedule is release (admittedly not really a problem).
Away fans can still be left out in the cold if the other team has reached their checkpoint.
Front Offices/teams have even more of an incentive to pack their stadiums.
Teams that sell out their stadiums still get their homefield advantages.
CD:
“I have been attending sporting events for 30 years in this country and nearly everyone of those events had intermingled groups of supporters (one of which was TFC vs the Fire in Chicago that had zero problems). Certain members of fan bases do not know how to behave and I would categorize them as a criminal element that should not be in attendance anyway. Fans of opposing teams intermingle at nearly every sporting event in this country without incident. If a fan crosses the line of legal behavior they should be prosecuted to the full extend of the law. Allowing fans supporting different teams to mix does not cause problems but making excuses for improper behavior does.”
:thumbsup
Well said. Bravo.
Bulajacket, all good analysis and I particularly like the part about the increased atmosphere the away fans give in the long term. Exactly right.
But let’s remember what we’re dealing with right now is a strategical issue. We need front offices like Toronto’s and MLS in general to understand the issue at stake, and a threat their own supporters will be shut out of Chicago if they shut out away fans themselves makes them realise the broader picture, hopefully. We are a long way from the actual game and actual tit-for-tat action, which should be a last resort if no resolution is found.
Also, let’s remember Chicago were at or near capacity for numerous games after the arrival of Blanco last season. They will not have the same attendance problems that Columbus do, and less need for dollars. It’s not only Toronto who sell-out games. We are still only talking about a small percentage of the stadium.
Finally, Chicago’s ownership needs to respond to its own fans who feel it is unfair if one front office is allowing something another isn’t to their detriment. Inaction will not make them look supportive, and it seems to me good they’re in dialogue. But the main thing is to get coordination and cooperation between groups like Section 8 Chicago and Toronto’s Red Patch Boys to work together on what to do — which is happening. Anyone who would like to be involved, keep checking back here as I’ll have more details soon. We definitely don’t want it to result in conflict between groups.
Tobor, it has been at least a couple of months (I sent an email to MLS requesting an interview on the subject in early January, receiving no response), and I believe the Chairman of the Chicago ISA contacted the league about it early last season as well as several times in recent months — though I am checking the dates for you.
Tom Dunmore:
“But let’s remember what we’re dealing with right now is a strategical issue. We need front offices like Toronto’s and MLS in general to understand the issue at stake, and a threat their own supporters will be shut out of Chicago if they shut out away fans themselves makes them realise the broader picture, hopefully. We are a long way from the actual game and actual tit-for-tat action, which should be a last resort if no resolution is found.”
Which would be stupid and petty by the Chicago FO.
Maybe they should work on selling out their stadium?
The situation between @Chicago & @Toronto is completely different.
I do agree that the league and teams should work more with organized (away) fans, if there is availability.
But I do not agree at all in penalizing home fans if the demand is there.
*and I do realize that the teams, fans, and league are in a predicament because there is formally nothing in place either way.
Tom Dunmore:
“Also, let’s remember Chicago were at or near capacity for numerous games after the arrival of Blanco last season. They will not have the same attendance problems that Columbus do, and less need for dollars. It’s not only Toronto who sell-out games. We are still only talking about a small percentage of the stadium.”
For which I think my subsequent compromise proposal (#39) is fair.
Home teams should not be penalized for selling out their own stadiums.
*and the proposal would also force home team fans to buy their tickets early if they want to prevent away fans from having a large presence.
Tobor, the Chairman of S8C first contacted the Commissioner of MLS directly about this issue in May 2007. We’re still waiting for him to wave his wand….
Bulajacket, I wrote response #41 before being able to read your second response #39. I think that’s an excellent suggestion, certainly we don’t want anyone being penalised for selling-out and your ideas should be considered.
My only point (and this came up much earlier in the comments, too) is that it shouldn’t matter who happens to be selling out their stadiums and who isn’t — there just needs to be a mandated policy in place for everyone, negotiated between the league, front offices and organised supporters’ groups like in other countries. Though again, Chicago did sell-out the last Toronto game themselves anyway, and will likely do so once more this year. Games were at or near capacity many times after a poor start.
But I do believe there is a good tactical reason for pressuring Toronto in the way Chicago may be doing, to get them to the discussion table — they have responded very poorly on this over the last year. Causing a bit of a stir is sometimes a good political choice to get things going.
I think all supporters of the growth of soccer in North America have to be a little proud at this point that a debate is occurring about how more fans want to get into games than there are seats. Bravo to that. I hope that isn’t lost in this debate.
If the MLS’s biggest problem involves selling out every game that is not the worst problem to have.
CD, thanks for that comment. I should add I’ve been amazed by the response to this issue, with thousands of people reading this page and a very constructive and interesting debate following. Whilst away support will never reach the level of England due to the immense distances here, the fact we’re talking about demand for hundreds of fans travelling +1000 mile roundtrips on a regular basis is a good sign. As the league grows this will become more common, and I’m glad the supporters’ community is addressing this now.
“Bulajacket, I wrote response #41 before being able to read your second response #39.”
Yeah, I figured as much.
“I think that’s an excellent suggestion, certainly we don’t want anyone being penalised for selling-out and your ideas should be considered.”
Thanks; feel free to pass it on.
I agree this issue needs to be dealt with. Glad it is being brought to their attention. It will be important in the development of a strong league.
But Fire fans have to realize they can’t just get whatever number they ask for in a stadium sold out long before a schedule is thought about.
I agree 100 is way too low. MLSE has to find a way to give them at least 200-250 again. But why would we assume MLSE would set aside 500 seats for away supporters when no one brought anyone near that number to BMO last year.
They have over 16K STH, plus half seasons sold by November and 5000 people waiting in line, but would they have set aside a group of 500 seats?
People in Toronto without Season tickets cant get a seat without dealing with scalpers.
They demand is insane atm.
I think 500 is a reasonable number for the league to establish for future seasons, but as for this season 500 is logistically going to be almost impossible ( i doubt there are 500 together anywhere).
The tit for tat thing is juvenile and only hurts TFC supporters, who for the most part are in full support of finding more tickets for Fire fans. No one likes MLSE.
BulaJacket —->>> You should get an award!!
I honestly believe that you fully and whole heartdly understand the big picture!
I think the way you presented the options is exactly right!!
The incentive should be for Home teams to sell out their OWN stadiums.
We should all take a page out of BulaJackets posts, he is a smart person and should probably be working for the MLS.
Thank you BulaJacket for making it crystal clear for everyone, i just hope that they understand…..
As a TFC fan I’m going to have to agree with Mike on this issue in so far as the die has already been cast for this season in Toronto. 16,000 season seats sold, 500 half season seats sold, every game last year sold out. (Yes every game was sold out) It took about ten months on a waiting list for me to get my half season tix package for this season, and there are 3000-5000 people on the list behind me waiting patiently for their chance at tickets.
I agree with the sentiment that away fans should have a reasonable allocation of seats (500 or so) but at this point their aren’t enough tickets for Toronto fans.
Maybe MLSE should consider a 1000 – 5000 seat expansion in the North end of BMO and allocate 500 of these for away support for 2009. God knows they would pay for the expansion quickly enough from the rabid home fan base.
Mike, nothing has been set in stone regarding the TFC allocation at Chicago. We can still solve this issue for the future, so let’s not worry too much about that yet. Let’s deal with the issues as they stand for now.
Fire fans have just asked for an allocation commensurate with what could be realistically filled — for the Toronto FO to offer only a fifth of that back (less than half of the 2007 allocation, also at a sold-out game and when Section 8 had to disappoint many fans who wanted tickets) was just a kick in the teeth.
Please note the update to the original post above which explains we’ll soon be posting on the next steps.
“Tobor, the Chairman of S8C first contacted the Commissioner of MLS directly about this issue in May 2007. We’re still waiting for him to wave his wand….”
Was it an issue in May 2007 ?
I’d suggest that Garber would’ve looked at the very thought of having to address the issue of away support ticket allotment in an ‘if only…’ manner. As in ‘if only the sport and this league could become so popular as to warrant such regulation’.
I submit to you now that the league office is probably more inclined to look into now that there are 2200+ traveling TFC supporters going to Columbus – next year I’m sure the demand will be even higher, but I doubt as many tickets will be available as I like to think that Columbus will have increased their own fanbase by then (partly as a direct result of having 2200+ TFC supporters in Crew Stadium). That and there really isn’t any availability of tickets of any kind in Toronto.
I predict we’ll hear something from Garber about it all sometime this year.
Tobor, yes, it was an issue back then, hence why he was contacted. Section 8 had to turn away dozens of fans as TFC’s allocation was insufficient in 2007 as well. Moreover the same issues in principle — about developing a league-wide mandate and working on safety issues — stood then, too. Your faith in Garber is great, and I think we will hear something this year, but only because we’re pushing MLS. They just wouldn’t figure this out off their own bat — trust me on that.
I strongly believe that as the league grows to closer to twenty teams this will become a much larger problem. In California it will be so due to having three teams within a 6hour drive and the rivalry of having close connections. In the tri-state area we now have supporters that can easily travel. In the great lakes area we now have supporters that want to travel, which will then trickle southward as St.Louis gets the next team.
This shows the lack of forsight in the front offices of these clubs. They are not owned entirely by futbol people. These clubs need to do more to get their colors in other stadiums. I find it very interesting that i was talking to a friend about soccer support in the u.s. The basic point was that he was in England and stopped by a 3rd division game with over 9,000 people singing the entire game.
Philly should not set its seating at 18,500, it should go for 20,000 and open up a section to D.C., N.Y., Columbus, N.E., and Chicago. The same goes for D.C., they are in talks for a stadium; this team should be inviting supporters from other teams. Maybe even the supporters groups themselves should become more involved vocally with the clubs to get other supporters groups in the stadia of our league.
We have not been around since 1886, but we can make a larger impact as our league grows larger and closer.
Tom,
Is this the first time that Section 8 has tried to get this number of tickets for an away game or is this typical of Chicago’s travelling support?
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=514368&root=mls&campaign=rss&source=soccernet&cc=5901
An interesting take by Ives.
While it is easy to see Toronto FC wanting to hold on to as many tickets as possible considering the club is regularly selling out BMO Field, turning away potential visitors to Toronto doesn’t seem like a smart idea either. You would have to wonder what the city of Toronto and its tourism board would have to say about hundreds of potential visitors being told not to bother visiting. Considering the city contributed to a portion of the cost of the stadium, and technically owns it, I can’t help but think Toronto city officials wouldn’t be too keen on that sort of short-sightedness.
“Also remember that not every team is as needy for fans as Columbus. One doubts Chicago will be offering Toronto fans more seats at Toyota Park than Toronto are offering Chicago at BMO Field as a matter of reciprocity — so this directly impacts on TFC fans who want to travel, too.”
I don’t see the benefit of two clubs getting into a pissing match. This is an opportunity for the Fire to show class and shame MLSE. A
Anyway – whatever – as noted above the issue is picking up steam and will have to be dealt with now.
Next.
Very good points made by mostly all bloggers, and an excellent post.
My initial gut reaction is to be more concerned with the unknown, and the lack of physical safety that venturing in to the unknown allows for. Away supporters sections do provide an excellent harbour for safe support in areas where safety is key. I would like hope that true hooliganism (football factories and firms) are things that we don’t adopt from the rest of the football world, but the hopes for peaceful rhetoric being the extent of violence at footy matches doesn’t prevent those prone to using their team as an excuse to engage in violence from being violent. It’s a sad state, but the truth is the consideration needs to be made that away supporters may need a section of their own if there is a perceived reality that things may get out of hand during a football match.
League owners I am guessing don’t deal in the unknown, and work with facts. I suppose that not having a dedicated percentage away supporters section is understandable (Under certain condition – see below – this isn’t right, but right now it is understandable). Perhaps the league management doesn’t anticipate that safety will be an issue, as evidenced by the numbers of away supporters for most MLS teams (which aren’t staggering) – security on hand can usually deal with anything that arises present day, I would think. On top of that, and you all have said it, money IS an issue. What business owner would complain when 2000 happy and rabid fans want to come spend their money with an away team, especially when they are having trouble filling the place without them?
The facts in this case seem to lead me to believe that the finances (the only thing that matters to the owners) don’t support the dedicated percentage. Yet. In cities like Toronto I can assure you we would love to have more seats to ourselves, so giving them away for an away side often stings because they are being taken away from us. I am sure that MLSE is already hearing calls for expansion of BMO field to accomodate this problem. I can imagine MLSE owners are hard pressed under these circumstances, so are forced up to give up the away seats to their fans (aka their best customers). It is simply good business, and keeps football alive in the city. In Columbus, Kansas City and some other MLS venues, the problem is the opposite, so the owners accomodate to keep the Football alive in that city as well.
Keep in mind everyone – if the seats aren’t filled, the team won’t be there long. There’s no profit in dead air and cold chairs. The team will do whatever it can to fill seats, and do that regularly. Nobody can argue with the fact that having an away supporters side adds a lot of fun to the game, though, and that the flavour just isn’t the same without it.
With all things being equal in other venues (rabid, dedicated fans filling the arena like we all agree they have in Europe), a dedicated section is undoubtedly a safe and smart business move – the seats will fill. I am sure the owners will come around to this fact when the league as a whole gets to where everyone agrees it will be – a rousing, amazing, home-fan-seat filling success.
Tobor — it’s not about a “pissing match”, it’s about a principle being at stake. Now, you might well be right the Fire should do the reverse and shame MLSE by offering TFC 500 tickets, but I don’t think you’re characterising my point fairly there. But as I’ve said, the Fire have announced nothing yet about TFC’s allocation so let’s focus on the negotiations now.
Question:
Why do so many TFC fans turn to the “sell out your stadium first” argument? What does a game being sold out/not sold out in Chicago or anywhere have to do with traveling fans? Over in the UK I’m sure there are many ManU, Liverpool and Arsenal supporters that have difficulty finding tickets.
If TFC is only going to offer a paltry 100 tickets then they should expect the same from Chicago and other clubs.
Micah,
Great question, but I don’t think the fans are the ones with the philosophy. As is demonstrated by TFC supporters commentary above, the philosophy is actually different in most cases. From what I see,TFC fans want a larger supporters section for the flavor of the game. The issue doesn’t appear to be in the hands of the fans to control, rather is controlled by hard finances, and what the owners feel is good for business.
I also feel that you suggested “eye for an eye” philosophy on ticket sales might not be good for Business, even if the numbers are, as you say (and I agree) “paltry”. I would also suggest to keep in mind that the MLS doesn’t have a precedent for high ticket sales like there is here in Toronto, and that market conditions are not equal in all cities, so it is difficult for any club owner (let alone the league) to determine their approach without more facts and some history to build upon. The UK, Europe or anywhere else in the world (with the exception of potentially Australia) is an unfair comparison to make right now – their markets are evidently very different from ours, so it makes sense that they conduct their business differently.
I’m part of the LA Riot Squad, and have traveled to San Jose will do so again this year.
What MLS has difficulty understanding is the way that away support sells tickets for both teams in the stadium. The twice annual trips to San Jose were absolutely foundational in the early growth of LARS, and occasional fans frequently got off the bus and turned into season ticket holders.
At the same time, away support in the stadium creates the kind of atmosphere that makes the casual home fan want to come back. ESPN and MLS can see this well enough that they make sure every derby the Galaxy play with Chivas gets televised. We had the same kind of electric atmosphere when we played Pachuca in the SuperLiga final last summer. And this is not unique to LA. My son and I were in Chicago last summer and attended the TFC/Fire match. A really dreary match, preceded by $15 to park on gravel, was saved and enlivened by the two supporters groups. I’m really at a loss to understand why MLS cannot/will not see this more clearly.
Yes, there have been problems with away support – PZ above referenced the beatdown we received at the hands and batons of the San Jose State campus police – and we were attacked before and after our last derby match by Chivas “supporters”. But both instances could have easily been prevented by more proactive and knowledgeable action by the stadium personnel. (That said, my conversations with Galaxy and MLS officials after the Chivas match do not make me very confident this will be fixed very easily)
Several above have mentioned that there is no tradition of organized away support in the American professional sports – but MLS should view this as an advantage that would better define soccer’s place in the sports landscape. We’re hoping to take a very large group to Oakland when the Galaxy play the Aftershocks there in June, and we’ll be traveling to see the Galaxy play MLS soccer. We’re not going to see the David Beckhams play thrown together Asian teams, which was just done to underwhelming response.
It seems that the way forward is:
- for each team to hold tickets for away support
- for each club to take the lead to organize and enable travel to the nearest rival(s)
- for the stadiums to anticipate difficulties and have league-wide policies for supporters sections
Come on MLS – away support will sell tickets, build atmosphere, and raise the profile of your league. It’s not rocket science – get with it.
Hmmm, and now it appears that the Dallas leg of the Texas Derby has been moved from a Saturday in August to a Wednesday in May, that puts a hardship on getting a big turnout from the Texian Army and El Batallon.
What team in their right mind would limit tickets to anyone when they’re stadium has not sold out?
‘Cause that would be stupid.
Toronto FC has by far the highest amount of season tickets sold so far this year.
Gere is full report from The MLS Zone:
http://themlszone.blogspot.com/2008/03/season-ticket-numbers-released.html
1. TORONTO FC – 16,641 (+34%)
2. Los Angeles Galaxy – 7,915 (-15%)
3. D.C. United – 5,976 (+27%)
4. Real Salt Lake – 4,632 (+5%)
5. Houston Dynamo – 4,116 (+87%)
6. New England Revolution – 4,001 (+14%)
7. San Jose Earthquakes – 3,822
8. Columbus Crew – 3,227 (+1%)
9. New York Red Bulls – 3,170 (+33)
10. FC Dallas – 3,002 (-4%)
11. Colorado Rapids – 2,968 (+59%)
12. CHICAGO FIRE- 2,759 (+8%)
13. Kansas City Wizards – 1,539 (+232%)
14. Chivas USA – 837 (-2%)
It is not easy to get tickets in Toronto,and as far we know TFC has offered extra 150 tickets to Sec8 so we are talking 250. I wonder how many will show up after crying like a babies all over the net 110-150 top.
Hey, very interesting post.
My written English is not so good so I write in German:
“Lieber den Spatz in der Hand, als die Taube auf dem Dach.”
Yours sincerely
Luxus
Very good written. I’ m loving reading these articles , it is such a rich topic, and a great chance for fans to share their knowledge & passion!
R.Vinello
I like two things when looking through your blog – pics and the way you write)) love the third photo, so many people are involved)