Comments on: Hooliganism in the U.S.?

By: Thomas Dunmore

Thomas Dunmore — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:30:30 +0000

Gumanow, Flickr community guidelines have been followed in this case, as always on Pitch Invasion — the procedure is to link the photo back to the Flickr original, which is what we have done.

“Remember! Flickr Community Guidelines specify that if you post a Flickr photo on an external website, the photo must link back to its photo page.”

If you’re not happy with this, we can remove the photo. Let me know either way.

By: gumanow

gumanow — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:02:51 +0000

Maybe since you are using my photo on this blog that you should give it the proper attribution? It is copyright material, even it is on flickr.

By: Ultra

Ultra — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:38:49 +0000

let the passion flow, what america is looking at is not hooliganism here, but ultras. that is ok, do not worry about excesive violence because that could never happen here. Though i wish hooliganism would land here…

By: Online Betting King

Online Betting King — Fri, 09 Nov 2007 21:04:18 +0000

Good point Thomas, although surely communicating with police who know what they’re doing early on would be wise as no-one really knows how quickly the violence could escalate do they?
Many clubs in the UK have deals with US teams on a ‘parent club’ basis for example Chelsea have had links with LA Galaxy for a number of years and this may be the best first step for American teams to understand the importance of tackling the issue.
Oh and fair point, perhaps I was being too kind on the American league, shall we say 20 years behind?

By: Thomas Dunmore

Thomas Dunmore — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:30:44 +0000

I think looking at the British could be useful, but at this stage it’s not needed particularly police-wise. The clubs and supporters themselves should perhaps have some dialogue with their counterparts in Europe, though.

And soccer fans in the U.S. would be very happy if we were only 10 years behind English football!

By: Online Betting King

Online Betting King — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:19:30 +0000

There is always going to be the potential for trouble at games, no matter how large the police prescence is or how much is done to seperate fans.
In England – where the police authorities are the best equipped at dealing with such trouble – there is little, if any trouble within the ground itself, the Hooligan’s themselves find other areas in which to fight.
As the USA is,in terms of football – with all due respect – at least 10 years behind English football, the policing will also lacking in intelligence when it comes to its strategies.
The European clubs have been in contact with their British counterparts to establish a system to rule out Hooliganism on the continent, perhaps if trouble is rearing its head in the states, the American authorities should contact the Brits too?

By: Soccer Source

Soccer Source — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:38:27 +0000

I addressed this at length on my blog. Kind of tongue-in-cheek but I think it’s a must-read nonetheless (but I’m biased):

http://soccer-source.blogspot.com/2007/10/mls-hooliganism-we-should-be-so-lucky.html

By: Antonio G

Antonio G — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:48:21 +0000

That’s fair. I’d certainly agree that there is a lot of potential for “trouble” in MLS.

I also probably shouldn’t exaggerate the degree of even implied aggro in the parking lot afterwards…one of the loudest chants on our side was “we don’t pay for health care”! But this actually suggests more than anything that TFC fans just have a piss-poor grasp of public policy (perhaps to be expected).

By: Thomas Dunmore

Thomas Dunmore — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:41:27 +0000

I agree about the gap, and in my article I didn’t mean to minimise it. But perhaps I did.

The points about escalation were made by Brimson and a very experienced Section 8 member. I was actually slightly surprised to find the latter largely agreeing with the former — I’d expected to write a more critical article when I began it. But that would have been misrepresenting genuine concerns I found talking to people who know a lot more about the subject than me.

Let’s be clear though, in case I wasn’t in the article, that there is no suggestion a punchup or two inevitably leads to widescale hooliganism between supporters’ groups: rather that if several actual real hooligans were involved (outsiders stirring trouble), things could escalate if trouble breaks out.

That is, genuine hooligans are needed for a genuine hooligan culture to emerge — and it could conceivably develop into a bigger problem unless the authorities and supporters’ groups are vigilant. That doesn’t make it inevitable, of course. The difficulty is soccer is perceived as a playground for hooligans in Europe by Americans, and any pattern of incidents here would cause real difficulties for MLS. Imagine the plummeting AYSO sales!

Very interesting tale about the groups meeting in the lot. Clearly most of the time, there is far more mouth than trousers. The same has always been the case in England, too; the problem occurs when a very small minority become set on attaching real violence to tense situations, and lines become blurred quickly.

By: Antonio G

Antonio G — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:23:10 +0000

I think you do a pretty good job here. But I think the gap between a few people throwing some punches and a genuine hooligan culture is larger than you make it out to be.

If things had gotten out of hand in Toronto, would that have turned section 8 into hooligans? Would it have made the Red Patch Boys hooligans (not that I’m saying it was RPB types that were involved…)?

But you and Brimson are both right to say that stadium security is key. Stadium security in and around BMO is weak – something they paid for the price for in the U-20 WC when things really did kick off after the Argentina-Chile game. But I found stadium security reasonably good in New York when a few bare-chested frat-boy types with “canada sucks” mottos painted on their bodies decided they wanted some aggro with the TFC support. Things got hot enough that I was actively steering my son out of the path of what would have been the path to the fight, but security intervened quietly but effectively to break things up.

They also permitted, after the game, the two supporters groups to “meet” and “confront” one another (via singing) in the parking lot outside the match. That was kind of interesting. It was almost like the pre-rubgy match war dances the Maori do. You had two groups singing – and occasionally gesticulating – aggressively to each other with a line of security people in between. It had the outward show of aggro, but I’m not sure if anyone would actually have had the gusto for it if security hadn’t been there and an actual threat of violence had been present. After about five minutes, everyone got bored and the two groups moved in separate directions. Make of that what you will.